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Matchmaking is flawed, let the devs know.


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#1 h0B0

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Posted January 22 2013 - 05:42 PM

Awrite. After reading this: http://community.pla...-reaper-update/ I came to the conclusion that they were oblivious to the flaws of matchmaking. And no matter how hard and long they try to fix it they never will.
So these are the reasons why matchmaking is flawed and it will never be able to calculate your individual skill level accurately and provide you with balanced games.

1. Joining on friends.
2. Changing teams midmatch.

Do i really need to explain why?

Do you have anything else to add?
Do you want the devs to fix this?
Comment on the topic, let them know.

Edited by h0B0, January 22 2013 - 07:02 PM.

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View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on March 15 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Oh don't always listen to h0B0. Lol.


#2 KaszaWspraju

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Posted January 22 2013 - 05:48 PM

ad1.
This groups of players should participate only against other groups. Organized team should never be thrown against public teams, regardless of whether the population from two up to six players.

Edited by KaszaWspraju, January 22 2013 - 05:50 PM.

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#3 h0B0

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Posted January 22 2013 - 05:49 PM

I was asked to explain.

1. Joining on friends will not provide the devs with accurate  data concerning your skills because it allows you to enter a friends game and therefore enter a game in which you should not be playing based on your skill level. If i were to carry my 7 month old niece with my SK buddies she would obviously be matched with players above her actual skill levels. And if my SK buddies were to join in her game you can all imagine the consequences.

2. Changing teams mid match allows you to stack teams and therefore improve your stats artificially.

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View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on March 15 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Oh don't always listen to h0B0. Lol.


#4 h0B0

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Posted January 22 2013 - 05:50 PM

View PostKaszaWspraju, on January 22 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

ad1.
This groups of players should participate only against other groups. Organized team should never be thrown against public teams, regardless of whether the population from two to up to six players.
Yes, this would help the devs get accurate data on players, and would make it more pleasant for the players.

Thank you for the suggestion.

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View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on March 15 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Oh don't always listen to h0B0. Lol.


#5 fwip

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Posted January 22 2013 - 05:56 PM

I imagine that they could safely remove joining-on-friend once they get their social patch out, and could probably safely remove team-switching once matchmaking has enough people to reliably refill games.
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#6 Azrael39

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Posted January 22 2013 - 05:58 PM

I doubt the player base is large enough to break the skill levels up by groups.  But, I do agree once you can form a Party or a Team, those Teams should only be put up against other formed Parties and Teams of the same amount of players.
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#7 Kronguard

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Posted January 22 2013 - 05:58 PM

View Posth0B0, on January 22 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

Awrite. After reading this: http://community.pla...the-devs-know/. I came to the conclusion that they were oblivious to the flaws of matchmaking. And no matter how hard and long they try to fix it they never will.
So these are the reasons why matchmaking is flawed and it will never be able to calculate your individual skill level accurately and provide you with balanced games.

1. Joining on friends.
2. Changing teams midmatch.

Do i really need to explain why?

Do you have anything else to add?
Do you want the devs to fix this?
Comment on the topic, let them know.

Matchmaking is not even done yet,they plan to implement it in multiple stages till it functions exactly how they plan to.
Perhaps reading before posting is something you should exercise,community might avoid few useless topics and unnecessary rage wars since i assume there are quite few people who don't read not think before posting.
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#8 ArnieF4440

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Posted January 22 2013 - 06:05 PM

Server browser ... nuff said
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#9 R33F3R

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Posted January 22 2013 - 06:14 PM

View PostAzrael39, on January 22 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

I doubt the player base is large enough to break the skill levels up by groups.  But, I do agree once you can form a Party or a Team, those Teams should only be put up against other formed Parties and Teams of the same amount of players.

Yup I agree. The only way to combat team stacking is to lock groups of people together with the same numbers and skill. IE. 5 lock... a group of 5 locked with another group of 5.


Locked groups cant switch teams, the second someone from a locked party leaves the game becomes unlocked meaning people get their solo queue features back.

We need a team locking system, a group system, clan things...and yes the server browser before this discussion is over. Crossing my fingers!

Edited by R33F3R, January 22 2013 - 06:18 PM.

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#10 h0B0

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Posted January 22 2013 - 06:18 PM

View PostKronguard, on January 22 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

View Posth0B0, on January 22 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

Awrite. After reading this: http://community.pla...the-devs-know/. I came to the conclusion that they were oblivious to the flaws of matchmaking. And no matter how hard and long they try to fix it they never will.
So these are the reasons why matchmaking is flawed and it will never be able to calculate your individual skill level accurately and provide you with balanced games.

1. Joining on friends.
2. Changing teams midmatch.

Do i really need to explain why?

Do you have anything else to add?
Do you want the devs to fix this?
Comment on the topic, let them know.

Matchmaking is not even done yet,they plan to implement it in multiple stages till it functions exactly how they plan to.
Perhaps reading before posting is something you should exercise,community might avoid few useless topics and unnecessary rage wars since i assume there are quite few people who don't read not think before posting.
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Also.


View Posth0B0, on December 11 2012 - 07:47 PM, said:

View Post[ADH]HUGHES, on December 11 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

Matchmaking and the Server Browser

One of the hot topics that surfaced during our final Closed Beta event was the removal of the server browser. I want to take some time to explain the reasons we're not going live with that yet. A fair and balanced experience is a high priority for us and the server browser was making it difficult for us to test our matchmaking design thoroughly. Even though it was sometimes a convenient way to jump into a match, ultimately it had a hand in making matches unbalanced, uneven and well… no fun for a good number of players. As a result of its removal we were able to make quite a few improvements to the system and hopefully players will see a difference in the matchmaking experience. Right away you should see changes not only in the balance of your opponent's skill, but also when a player joins match. Also, matches with more players are now favored so this will help reduce the chance a player will have to wait for more people before a match can start. There are other behind the scenes tweaks we've made since Closed Beta. We want the best possible experience for all HAWKEN players and we will continue to tweak as needed.
Thank you again!

Jason Hughes
[ADH]HUGHES
Producer, Adhesive Games

from : http://community.pla...notes-feedback/

I have read the topic. i have read a lot of dev responses, patch notes and feedback. And not once have i seen them mention the fact that they were considering these flaws whilst in the meantime forcing us to test this matchmaking with these flaws incorporated. If i am to start a rage war, then so be it. I will get the attention this topic deserves.
You can not have fair and unbiased stats if you have friends joining on your games and ruining balance. You can not have fair and unbiased stats when you can switch teams. And since you can not have fair and unbiased stats you can not make a reliable system that is attempting to balance you according to your true skill.

Edited by h0B0, January 22 2013 - 06:21 PM.

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View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on March 15 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Oh don't always listen to h0B0. Lol.


#11 Ollie

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Posted January 22 2013 - 06:24 PM

But it's only a beta! XD
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#12 R33F3R

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Posted January 22 2013 - 06:26 PM

i guess i didnt type anything, hobo?

..k ill just go kill myself then.

Edited by R33F3R, January 22 2013 - 06:32 PM.

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#13 h0B0

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Posted January 22 2013 - 06:32 PM

View PostR33F3R, on January 22 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

View PostAzrael39, on January 22 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

I doubt the player base is large enough to break the skill levels up by groups.  But, I do agree once you can form a Party or a Team, those Teams should only be put up against other formed Parties and Teams of the same amount of players.

Yup I agree. The only way to combat team stacking is to lock groups of people together with the same numbers and skill. IE. 5 lock... a group of 5 locked with another group of 5.


Locked groups cant switch teams, the second someone from a locked party leaves the game becomes unlocked meaning people get their solo queue features back.

We need a team locking system, a group system, clan things...and yes the server browser before this discussion is over. Crossing my fingers!

Very good suggestion. Devs should keep this in mind for later integrations of the MM.

Team switching in itself is a variable that is likely to change your ranking and should be removed if they were truely trying to balance MM.
However they will kill the game if they force the players to test MM with the restrictions i have proposed.
If they truely want to test MM give us back server browser and give a bonus HC to the participants testing the MM that doesnt have team switching and friend joining.

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View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on March 15 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Oh don't always listen to h0B0. Lol.


#14 h0B0

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Posted January 22 2013 - 06:33 PM

View PostR33F3R, on January 22 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

i guess i didnt type anything, hobo?

..k ill just go kill myself then.

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View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on March 15 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Oh don't always listen to h0B0. Lol.


#15 h0B0

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Posted January 22 2013 - 06:37 PM

View PostOllie, on January 22 2013 - 06:24 PM, said:

But it's only a beta! XD
Ollie. It is beta indeed.

They do need the feedback.
And basing their stats on a flawed system will never lead to a truely balanced system.

But i understand what you mean ;). I am not complaining, i am providing positive feedback.

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View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on March 15 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Oh don't always listen to h0B0. Lol.


#16 R33F3R

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Posted January 22 2013 - 06:50 PM

View Posth0B0, on January 22 2013 - 06:33 PM, said:

View PostR33F3R, on January 22 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

i guess i didnt type anything, hobo?

..k ill just go kill myself then.

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nope, too late to be nice. Im already dead.
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#17 Kenaf

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Posted January 22 2013 - 06:52 PM

View PostR33F3R, on January 22 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

View PostAzrael39, on January 22 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

I doubt the player base is large enough to break the skill levels up by groups.  But, I do agree once you can form a Party or a Team, those Teams should only be put up against other formed Parties and Teams of the same amount of players.

Yup I agree. The only way to combat team stacking is to lock groups of people together with the same numbers and skill. IE. 5 lock... a group of 5 locked with another group of 5.


Locked groups cant switch teams, the second someone from a locked party leaves the game becomes unlocked meaning people get their solo queue features back.

We need a team locking system, a group system, clan things...and yes the server browser before this discussion is over. Crossing my fingers!


It has to be something like this. I can't really think of another way. And couldn't premade matches go unranked so as to not fuzzy bunny with the stats?
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#18 h0B0

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Posted January 22 2013 - 06:55 PM

View PostKenaf, on January 22 2013 - 06:52 PM, said:

View PostR33F3R, on January 22 2013 - 06:14 PM, said:

View PostAzrael39, on January 22 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

I doubt the player base is large enough to break the skill levels up by groups.  But, I do agree once you can form a Party or a Team, those Teams should only be put up against other formed Parties and Teams of the same amount of players.

Yup I agree. The only way to combat team stacking is to lock groups of people together with the same numbers and skill. IE. 5 lock... a group of 5 locked with another group of 5.


Locked groups cant switch teams, the second someone from a locked party leaves the game becomes unlocked meaning people get their solo queue features back.

We need a team locking system, a group system, clan things...and yes the server browser before this discussion is over. Crossing my fingers!


It has to be something like this. I can't really think of another way. And couldn't premade matches go unranked so as to not fuzzy bunny with the stats?

How about implementing a team ranking somewhere along the line?
Along with the community patches and clan support. Being able to make teams have them ranked to fight other teams of similar ranking.
Kind of like what league does.

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View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on March 15 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Oh don't always listen to h0B0. Lol.


#19 Guiotine

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Posted January 22 2013 - 06:55 PM

View Posth0B0, on January 22 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

Awrite. After reading this: http://community.pla...the-devs-know/. I came to the conclusion that they were oblivious to the flaws of matchmaking. And no matter how hard and long they try to fix it they never will.

So after reading this thread, you decided to make this thread about how you read this same thread and needed it to be brought to the attention of the devs? :P

Everything I agree with, or rather, nothing I disagree with. These flaws should definitely be taken into account if they are going to fix MM.

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#20 evizaer

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Posted January 22 2013 - 06:57 PM

The game has very painful issues with team stacking and leaving right now. It's downright demoralizing how lopsided games tend to be. I played maybe 8 matches today, and only one match was close. Several matches involved the losing team being decimated by leaving. It's not fun to be stomped, so I don't blame the leavers.

How do you fix this situation?

At the end of every match, dump the players back into the queue and put them in a game that seems to better match their skill level. If this can't be done, at least rearrange the teams according to performance.

Do something about people who play and leave.

Make the matches faster. Have mercy rules that prevent lopsided games from taking the full amount of time, or tighten the time limits on games a bit. Sitting through 10 minutes of slaughter repeatedly gets tiring quickly.




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