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Noobs and EMP


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#1 zerj

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Posted January 23 2013 - 11:40 AM

The in-game discussion of EMPs has started to get a little annoying.

Now I fully admit I am a bit of a noob.   I tend to charge into things to fast and either die horribly or somehow kill everybody there.  My K/D regularly swings between 6/1 and 1/6.  However what doesn't make me a noob is the weapons I choose to use.   I admittedly switch between different offensive weapons including the EMP.  Stuns are in a large percentage FPS/MMO games being played.  Certainly it is annoying to get shut down mid fight,  however that is sort of the point.  My goal is to kill you.  I imagine it is a real issue for those in C-Class Mechs that can't get out of the way.  However the complaints against EMPs should really be directed at the developers not your opponent.  

You know what I think makes someone really seem like a noob? Complaining about the weapons your opponent is using.  Everybody has access to the same line of equipment, if you thing something is overpowered it's really your job to be using it yourself, or figuring out a way to counter it.  If something is just annoying that is the fault of the game not the opponent.  

This essay is quite dated but still seems to apply to most games: Playing to Win

#2 mantisftw

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Posted January 23 2013 - 11:46 AM

Emp is a crutch, if you depend on it to win you'll never actually develop the skills to become a good player. If I come out at and the first thing you do is emp me, there is no fight. I now have to run away from you because there is nothing I can do for 7 seconds. In an FPS like hawken where not being able to fire and keeping moving fast is key to your survival, it just breaks the game. Which is why people will call you a scrub, and call you out for using it.

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#3 Zeshi

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Posted January 23 2013 - 11:50 AM

If you use emp (for non testing/showing how broken it is purposes), you deserve whatever you get.
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#4 superbank

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Posted January 23 2013 - 12:04 PM

Well EMP is getting nerfed tomorrow (not enough though) but I'll respond anyway.

View Postzerj, on January 23 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

However what doesn't make me a noob is the weapons I choose to use.   I admittedly switch between different offensive weapons including the EMP.

Hehe.

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Stuns are in a large percentage FPS/MMO games being played.

Name 1 respected competitive multiplayer FPS that allows 7 seconds of disarmament (as in no attacking whatsoever) with such ease of use.

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Certainly it is annoying to get shut down mid fight,  however that is sort of the point.  My goal is to kill you.  I imagine it is a real issue for those in C-Class Mechs that can't get out of the way.

Yes you want to kill me, and I you. So let's increase EMPs duration to 1 minute. Everyone should just use it right? It's not a bad experience at all, and would be fine with longer down time, and we can all use it so it's fair game.

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However the complaints against EMPs should really be directed at the developers not your opponent.  

You know what I think makes someone really seem like a noob? Complaining about the weapons your opponent is using.  Everybody has access to the same line of equipment, if you thing something is overpowered it's really your job to be using it yourself, or figuring out a way to counter it.  If something is just annoying that is the fault of the game not the opponent.

There is no counter to the current EMP besides staying at a safe distance to where you could realistically dodge the EMPs affect radius (which is much larger than the visual effect you see). That is not realistic with Hawkens gameplay style.

You're right that complaints should be focused on the devs more than players. If someones overdoing it with EMP I tell them nicely and try not to attack them. Though I do look down on EMP players because they are obviously aware of the advantages and do not think highly of their opponents to use such tactics.

Edited by superbank, January 23 2013 - 12:06 PM.


#5 zerj

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Posted January 23 2013 - 12:05 PM

View Postmantisftw, on January 23 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:

Emp is a crutch, if you depend on it to win you'll never actually develop the skills to become a good player. If I come out at and the first thing you do is emp me, there is no fight. I now have to run away from you because there is nothing I can do for 7 seconds. In an FPS like hawken where not being able to fire and keeping moving fast is key to your survival, it just breaks the game. Which is why people will call you a scrub, and call you out for using it.

I'd say nothing is so broken that it breaks the game.  However I certainly don't EMP first and shoot later.  Personally I'd rather save it for when I see 2-3 mechs camping a tight corridor/control point.    However i could care less about what you call me, your on the opposing team and if I distract you that isn't a bad thing, However this is a team game and it gets annoying to see teammates sitting in the spawn enaged in a flawewar with the other side, as opposed to actually engaged in the real war vs the other side.

#6 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted January 23 2013 - 12:10 PM

View Postzerj, on January 23 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Stuns are in a large percentage FPS/MMO games being played.
How many of those games are good game?
How many of those games do it well?
How many of those games are even so similar to Hawken the examples would be applicable?

Just because it exists in other games, even if a majority of them, does not automatically mean it is a good mechanic.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

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#7 Guiotine

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Posted January 23 2013 - 12:16 PM

I have yet to see a game where I can be stunned for 7 seconds at a time indefinitely (provided constant EMPs). Even SWTOR didn't have stuns that bad. I run the EMP on two mechs, but I can really only justify using it on rev grens and to give other people who EMP a taste of their own medicine. If I see someone use an EMP, I call them out in chat, and say I will be targeting them for the game, and if I hit anyone else I apologize, as it is not intentional.

View PostReachH, on April 01 2013 - 04:29 PM, said:

I dub thee, Guiotine, 'Coloxxen, the mech pokemon

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#8 zerj

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Posted January 23 2013 - 12:18 PM

View Postsuperbank, on January 23 2013 - 12:04 PM, said:

Well EMP is getting nerfed tomorrow (not enough though) but I'll respond anyway.

I fully realize this and an perfectly happy with the change as it will likely make the game better.  However I still think bitching at the other team is doing something unfair is perhaps the ultimate noob/scrub behavior.  It pretty is pretty much the definition of a scrub according to the article I linked.



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Name 1 respected competitive multiplayer FPS that allows 7 seconds of disarmament (as in no attacking whatsoever) with such ease of use.

You had to get awfully specific now with that didn't you?  Do you really think people will complain less because the stun is only 5.5 seconds tomorrow?


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Yes you want to kill me, and I you. So let's increase EMPs duration to 1 minute. Everyone should just use it right? It's not a bad experience at all, and would be fine with longer down time, and we can all use it so it's fair game.

Yes it would be fair.  It wouldn't be fun but it would be fair.  Do you think depending on the honor system when your playing nameless internet opponents is a good idea?  Fun is a problem for the Devs to fix not the playerbase.

#9 Beemann

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Posted January 23 2013 - 12:22 PM

I don't think you understand how balance works
If one option vastly outdoes every other option, it's simply not balanced
If everyone has a nuke, the game isn't balanced (and it probably won't be fun either, unless you just like spam-clicking, in which case I have a few facebook games to sell you on)
It takes time for the devs to find, fix and implement fixes for any given problem. In the meantime people will try to mitigate damage... there's nothing wrong with that
Also, relying on an OP crutch item is pretty scrubby
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#10 zerj

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Posted January 23 2013 - 12:23 PM

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on January 23 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

View Postzerj, on January 23 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Stuns are in a large percentage FPS/MMO games being played.
How many of those games are good game?
How many of those games do it well?
How many of those games are even so similar to Hawken the examples would be applicable?

Just because it exists in other games, even if a majority of them, does not automatically mean it is a good mechanic.

Does that matter?  Who said Hawken is a 'good game'?  If you want to make it a good game shouldn't you be using most powerful mechanics to highlight to the developers how broken it is?  I just don't see the sense in some sort of 'honor' system in not using a weapon in a Pub Match.  Further complaining about your opponent being a 'noob' because he is doing something you think is too powerful is just about the most hypocritical gaming statement I can think of.

#11 h0B0

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Posted January 23 2013 - 12:23 PM

Thank you for providing me with the tools to counter your arguement.

Taken from the article you have linked.

Quote

But there is a limit. There is a point when the bug becomes too much. In tournaments, bugs that turn the game off, or freeze it indefinitely, or remove one of the characters from the playfield permanently are banned. Bugs so extreme that they stop gameplay are considered unfair even by non-scrubs. As are techniques that can only be performed on, say, the player-1 side of the game. Tricks in fighting games that are side-dependent (that is, they can only be performed by the 2nd player or only by the first player) are sometimes not allowed in tournaments simply because both players don't have equal access to the trick--not because the tricks are too powerful.
Posted ImageThere are some limits to playing to win. Not sure if this is one of them.

Here's an example that shows what kind of power level is past the limit even of Playing to Win. Many versions of Street Fighter have secret characters that are only accessible through a code. Sometimes these characters are good, sometimes they're not. Occasionally, the secret characters are the best in the game, as in Marvel vs. Capcom. Big deal. That's the way that game is. Live with it. But the first version of Street Fighter to ever have a secret character was Super Turbo Street Fighter with its untouchably good Akuma. Most characters in that game cannot beat Akuma. I don't mean it's a tough match--I mean they cannot ever, ever, ever, ever win. Akuma is "broken" in that his air fireball move is something the game simply wasn't designed to handle. He's miles above the other characters, and is therefore banned in all US tournaments. But every game has a "best character" and those characters are never banned. They're just part of the game...except in Super Turbo. It's extreme examples like this that even amongst the top players, and even something that isn't a bug, but was put in on purpose by the game designers, the community as a whole has unanimously decided to make the rule: "don't play Akuma in serious matches."

Click me! I dare you.

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View Post[HWK]HUGHES, on March 15 2013 - 08:35 PM, said:

Oh don't always listen to h0B0. Lol.


#12 Beemann

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Posted January 23 2013 - 12:27 PM

View Postzerj, on January 23 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

If you want to make it a good game shouldn't you be using most powerful mechanics to highlight to the developers how broken it is?  
The idea is to not be a tool who drives out new players while the game is in its infancy

Edited by Beemann, January 23 2013 - 12:28 PM.

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#13 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted January 23 2013 - 12:27 PM

View Postzerj, on January 23 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

View PostAsianJoyKiller, on January 23 2013 - 12:10 PM, said:

View Postzerj, on January 23 2013 - 11:40 AM, said:

Stuns are in a large percentage FPS/MMO games being played.
How many of those games are good game?
How many of those games do it well?
How many of those games are even so similar to Hawken the examples would be applicable?

Just because it exists in other games, even if a majority of them, does not automatically mean it is a good mechanic.

Does that matter?  Who said Hawken is a 'good game'?  If you want to make it a good game shouldn't you be using most powerful mechanics to highlight to the developers how broken it is?  I just don't see the sense in some sort of 'honor' system in not using a weapon in a Pub Match.  Further complaining about your opponent being a 'noob' because he is doing something you think is too powerful is just about the most hypocritical gaming statement I can think of.
So in other words you not actually going to address any of the points I made.

As I'm not a fan of seafood, I'll leave you to your red herrings.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

The Sinful Infil HEAT Cannon Hustler, Cloaking and Smoking, C-Class Swagger, Ballin' n' Brawlin'


#14 superbank

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Posted January 23 2013 - 12:30 PM

View Postzerj, on January 23 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

I fully realize this and an perfectly happy with the change as it will likely make the game better.  However I still think bitching at the other team is doing something unfair is perhaps the ultimate noob/scrub behavior.  It pretty is pretty much the definition of a scrub according to the article I linked.

Alright. You can think whatever you want.

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You had to get awfully specific now with that didn't you?  Do you really think people will complain less because the stun is only 5.5 seconds tomorrow?

So you couldn't name an equivalent. There's a reason for that. Also there's a bigger nerf: the affect radius will be reduced to the visual effect.


Quote

Yes it would be fair.  It wouldn't be fun but it would be fair.  Do you think depending on the honor system when your playing nameless internet opponents is a good idea?  Fun is a problem for the Devs to fix not the playerbase.

It is technically fair, I agree. Players need to voice their opinions to be heard by the developers. Now, they can also have influence on other players if the devs aren't quick to respond (or have a vested interest in maintaining unfun mechanics for short-term monetary gain). I can't really blame the players for complaining while someone fuzzy bunnys on their face.

Edited by superbank, January 23 2013 - 12:31 PM.


#15 OsirisVDC

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Posted January 23 2013 - 12:35 PM

@h0B0

Well played sir.  It didn't take long playing this game as a noob with the EMP that the community called shenanigans.  Therefore I don't use it.
- Osiris

#16 PlanckZero

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Posted January 23 2013 - 01:05 PM

After the patch everyone that's been against the EMP should just say "**** it"

With the volume of complaints there have been against the EMP if this is the best they can rationalize as a balance then it's time to stop holding back and simply have EMPs flying in every direction during matches and see how long things last.

#17 Sylhiri

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Posted January 23 2013 - 01:10 PM

View PostPlanckZero, on January 23 2013 - 01:05 PM, said:

After the patch everyone that's been against the EMP should just say "**** it"

With the volume of complaints there have been against the EMP if this is the best they can rationalize as a balance then it's time to stop holding back and simply have EMPs flying in every direction during matches and see how long things last.

We know what will happen but we might want to continue enjoying the game. Doing that would give the newbies the idea that it is acceptable and trying to repair that damage would take a long time.

Plus I believe SK is planning to do such a thing in a controlled environment.

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#18 KyRoS

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Posted January 23 2013 - 01:22 PM

haha, h0B0 comes up with some funny fuzzy bunny. EMP is pretty lame. Even though I play with most of the guys on these forums some, and also the fact that I typically get destroyed by them, I still refuse to use the EMP even though I have like 35k HC's and 11.5k MC's to spend. Like has been mentioned, it's more of a crutch and even with the upcoming nerf, still seems cheap. I don't want to play a game with SK, SBS, etc. and look like a nub, even if it did get me more kills.

I will typically get destroyed by most of the elite players, but on the occasion that I do well, I want it to be because I played a quality game, made smart tactical decisions and did a good job both landing my TOW's and dodging others, not because I got some cheap kills off of EMP's.

Edited by KyRoS, January 23 2013 - 01:23 PM.


#19 MrZaku

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Posted January 23 2013 - 01:25 PM

Most people don't use EMP because it's overpowered, there aren't any legitimate counters to it, and makes the game unfun for the the recipient. They then tend to become frustrated when others decide that that's less important than winning, and spam it right and left. This isn't going to create any interesting metas, because the only counter to a skilled player using EMP is to avoid that player at all costs. If both teams roll full complements of overpowered EMPs, that will make for a pretty uninteresting match. 12 EMPs with a 1:15 cooldown makes for an emp every six seconds or so, or more since dying refreshes the cooldown. But hey, I guess I've never tried playing Hawken without combat, it could be interesting. :P

#20 AsianJoyKiller

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Posted January 23 2013 - 01:30 PM

When the Reaper patch hits, I actually may create a guide on how to use the EMP effectively and encourage it's use.
I seriously want to see what happens to the game if people realize how good EMP is, and can use it well on a regular basis.

I'd predict that nothing good would come of it, and that it would hurt the game. New players would be extremely turned off to Hawken and quit before giving it a chance.

I think the population taking that sort of hit, and the blow to Hawken's reputation would be a good wake up call to Adhesive about why mechanics like the EMP are bad.

[HWK]HUGHES, on July 03 2013 - 11:07 PM, said:

AJK is right

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